This will be a negative post, but hopefully, constructive criticism. I've
been to Oshkosh once, lots of small fly-ins, and every year for the past
eight years to the Arlington Fly-In (www.nweaa.org). Oshkosh is SO big, it
is difficult to take away a lot of lessons that are applicable to smaller
fly-ins, but I regard Arlington as the way things should be done. Not this
year. This year I spent a lot of time building up Arlington to the
non-aviation people I work with, and hopefully, several of them attended. I
hope they weren't disappointed. Below I've listed some of my observations.

1. Where were the signs? Maybe the person that puts up the signs on the
freeway and all the intersections on the way over-slept. But on my way in,
the normal signs weren't there. I even missed a turn and had to backtrack a
mile or so.

2. I got there about 30 minutes after the gates opened on Saturday, and
there were less cars than when I normally get there 15 minutes before the
gates opened.

3, Walked through the gates, and "Where are the Warbirds???" Last year,
the Warbirds and Arlington had a public falling out, but supposedly had made
up. I guess someone forgot to tell the Warbirds. I hadn't realized it, but
the WWII "stagedoor canteen" display was put on by the warbirds folks, and a
lot of people noticed it wasn't there. (I guess it wasn't there last year
either, and I didn't notice?)

4. Noticed a lot of empty airplane spaces. Was told that they had been
occupied on Friday, but that those airplanes had already left. I don't know
if in previous years the closer spots were allocated to planes that were
going to be there for a longer period of time or what. Maybe they
back-filled those spots when the previous airplanes left. Maybe it was
just luck. But it makes a bad impression when the spaces closest to the
public are largely empty.

5. Where was the Civil Air Patrol??? Normally, there are about 180-200
Cadets in attendance, doing outstanding duty. One of the Senior members
told me that he showed up and was shocked to not find any Cadets. Someone
else told me that it was a known thing that Cadets wouldn't be there. About
17 Cadets were there, but it was a disaster. The Arlington organizers went
nuts trying to find any warm bodies to backfill, but it was a losing
proposition. Those volunteers in attendance did a yeoman's duty, but were
over-whelmed.

6. Information was hard to obtain. Were the winds too high for a balloon
glow or not?

7. I don't know the attendance figures (it did pick up quite a bit on
Saturday afternoon), but several exhibitors said their foot traffic was down
by 50% from last year.

8. The exhibition tent was HOT, and the tables weren't being manned with
any regularity. This isn't the organizers fault; exhibitors, if you are
going to spend the money for space, make sure someone is there the whole
time! If you can't tag team and have to take a break, leave a sign that
says when you'll be back, not "Back in 15 minutes", because the shoppers
won't know when the 15 minutes started. This applies to the exhibitors
outside the tent, too.

9. Not everything was negative. The food was great as always (but a little
more expensive, I think). The shuttles were running all the time. The
antique tractor people were there with a good display, as always. Good
airshow. Good runway movies, which leads to #10 below.

10. The runway movie on Saturday night was "One Six Right". Good movie,
also a good movie for boring the kids to sleep! One thing that was stressed
over and over again in the movie was the need for aviation people to involve
non-aviation people. Aviation people talk to each other about how great
aviation is, but their outreach to others is very poor. This is biggest
problem I saw this year. There were radio commercials, but the url they
gave to get more information was long, I couldn't remember it. The
newspaper "things to do this weekend" didn't list the Fly-In. (I have a pet
peeve against the term "fly-in" itself; why would a non-aviation person be
interested in a fly-in? I much prefer the terms "aviation fair", "aviation
celebration", "air fair", "air show", etc.) If I was going for the first
time, I don't know how long it would have taken me to find it; the first
time I went (1998?), there were lots of signs, it would have been impossible
NOT to find it.

Arlington is planning on building a convention center, which will cause the
destruction of many hangers (they will be replaced), and I think this
contributed to "taking their eyes off the ball" and letting the fly-in
proceed on momentum. In the past years, Arlington has gotten better with
each year; not this year. A fly-in (sic) is an organic thing, and it needs
constant care and nurturing or it will decline. I hope this was just a one
year thing, and that next year will be the biggest and best yet. AND FOR
HEAVEN'S SAKE, GET THE CIVIL AIR PATROL BACK!!!

We too, attended Arlington this year - flying in from CYBW (Springbank near
Calgary, Alberta). We have been at the show several times over the past few
years, and were also somewhat disappointed with this year's offering.

I've been to Oshkosh and Sun & Fun, and I've always seen the Arlington show
as a more accessible and friendlier evernt, with more of a concentration on
the affordable and homebuilt/experimental side of aviation. We arrived on
Friday morning and had the usual competent assistance from the ground
controllers at Green Valley in touching down safely.

After landing and parking we took a tour of the grounds.The layout was a
little different from our last visit a couple years ago, but we did see most
of the regular vendors - Van's, Cirrus, New Glasair/Glastar, Murphy, etc.
Eggenfellner was there with a couple examples of the 4 and 6 cylinder Subaru
conversions in flying airframes, which was new from our last visit. Some
great Republic Seabees there, especially an award winning example with a
Corvette powerplant. Among the few warbirds were a couple of Alphajets and
a couple of Thunder Mustang scale replicas.

The first thing that struck me was the RV section of fly-in aircraft was
substantially down on plane count from previous years - normally a huge
turonout of RV's at Arlington. We heard that the weather had been poor
earlier in the week, which may explain part of that (along with the lesser
number of other fly-in traffic parked on the field) - but Friday was perfect
flying weather, and we didn't arrive until almost mid day. There were a few
examples of LSA aircraft manufacturers in a new lineup across from the
Ultralight area, probably less than 10. You could have fired a cannon
through the middle of the Ultralight section and not hit a plane - where in
the past there has been a lot of aircraft and exhibits, this year it was
pretty sparse.

We were considering staying on Saturday as well, but other than new planes
flying in Saturday there just wasn't any more that we needed to see. We
were able to flag down the fuel truck on Friday night, so we headed out on
Saturday morning. Based on this year's showing, we most likely won't be
back next year - I hope that this event was an abberation and not an
indication of a downward trend for the NWEAA show.

"Ken Finney" > wrote in message
...
> This will be a negative post, but hopefully, constructive criticism. I've
> been to Oshkosh once, lots of small fly-ins, and every year for the past
> eight years to the Arlington Fly-In (www.nweaa.org). Oshkosh is SO big,
> it is difficult to take away a lot of lessons that are applicable to
> smaller fly-ins, but I regard Arlington as the way things should be done.
> Not this year. This year I spent a lot of time building up Arlington to
> the non-aviation people I work with, and hopefully, several of them
> attended. I hope they weren't disappointed. Below I've listed some of my
> observations.
>
> 1. Where were the signs? Maybe the person that puts up the signs on the
> freeway and all the intersections on the way over-slept. But on my way
> in, the normal signs weren't there. I even missed a turn and had to
> backtrack a mile or so.
>
> 2. I got there about 30 minutes after the gates opened on Saturday, and
> there were less cars than when I normally get there 15 minutes before the
> gates opened.
>
> 3, Walked through the gates, and "Where are the Warbirds???" Last year,
> the Warbirds and Arlington had a public falling out, but supposedly had
> made up. I guess someone forgot to tell the Warbirds. I hadn't realized
> it, but the WWII "stagedoor canteen" display was put on by the warbirds
> folks, and a lot of people noticed it wasn't there. (I guess it wasn't
> there last year either, and I didn't notice?)
>
> 4. Noticed a lot of empty airplane spaces. Was told that they had been
> occupied on Friday, but that those airplanes had already left. I don't
> know if in previous years the closer spots were allocated to planes that
> were going to be there for a longer period of time or what. Maybe they
> back-filled those spots when the previous airplanes left. Maybe it was
> just luck. But it makes a bad impression when the spaces closest to the
> public are largely empty.
>
> 5. Where was the Civil Air Patrol??? Normally, there are about 180-200
> Cadets in attendance, doing outstanding duty. One of the Senior members
> told me that he showed up and was shocked to not find any Cadets. Someone
> else told me that it was a known thing that Cadets wouldn't be there.
> About 17 Cadets were there, but it was a disaster. The Arlington
> organizers went nuts trying to find any warm bodies to backfill, but it
> was a losing proposition. Those volunteers in attendance did a yeoman's
> duty, but were over-whelmed.
>
> 6. Information was hard to obtain. Were the winds too high for a balloon
> glow or not?
>
> 7. I don't know the attendance figures (it did pick up quite a bit on
> Saturday afternoon), but several exhibitors said their foot traffic was
> down by 50% from last year.
>
> 8. The exhibition tent was HOT, and the tables weren't being manned with
> any regularity. This isn't the organizers fault; exhibitors, if you are
> going to spend the money for space, make sure someone is there the whole
> time! If you can't tag team and have to take a break, leave a sign that
> says when you'll be back, not "Back in 15 minutes", because the shoppers
> won't know when the 15 minutes started. This applies to the exhibitors
> outside the tent, too.
>
> 9. Not everything was negative. The food was great as always (but a
> little more expensive, I think). The shuttles were running all the time.
> The antique tractor people were there with a good display, as always.
> Good airshow. Good runway movies, which leads to #10 below.
>
> 10. The runway movie on Saturday night was "One Six Right". Good movie,
> also a good movie for boring the kids to sleep! One thing that was
> stressed over and over again in the movie was the need for aviation people
> to involve non-aviation people. Aviation people talk to each other about
> how great aviation is, but their outreach to others is very poor. This is
> biggest problem I saw this year. There were radio commercials, but the
> url they gave to get more information was long, I couldn't remember it.
> The newspaper "things to do this weekend" didn't list the Fly-In. (I have
> a pet peeve against the term "fly-in" itself; why would a non-aviation
> person be interested in a fly-in? I much prefer the terms "aviation
> fair", "aviation celebration", "air fair", "air show", etc.) If I was
> going for the first time, I don't know how long it would have taken me to
> find it; the first time I went (1998?), there were lots of signs, it would
> have been impossible NOT to find it.
>
> Arlington is planning on building a convention center, which will cause
> the destruction of many hangers (they will be replaced), and I think this
> contributed to "taking their eyes off the ball" and letting the fly-in
> proceed on momentum. In the past years, Arlington has gotten better with
> each year; not this year. A fly-in (sic) is an organic thing, and it
> needs constant care and nurturing or it will decline. I hope this was
> just a one year thing, and that next year will be the biggest and best
> yet. AND FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, GET THE CIVIL AIR PATROL BACK!!!
>
>
>
>

You are more than welcome to come volunteer and help out in the setup,
running and teardown of the Fly-In. The only way this even happens is
buy the good graces of 300 volunteers. People who give up free time to
hopefully make your weekend fun and pleasurable.

1. Your comments on the signs will be sure to be forwarded to the
appropriate organizers. They should have been by the freeway. That
being said, in the 12 months between events, holes have a tendancy to
get filled or destroyed by road work. Property owners change and
suddenly we can't use a spot we've used for years. I've done sign
setup, it's not an easy task to get every single one put up.

2. No comment, I never made it to the parking lot this year.

3. I'd suggest directing your comments to the Warbirds. No other EAA
division gets money to attend a Fly-In, why should they? If they want
to buy a million dollar airplane, they should be able to afford the
gas. Otherwise you, the attendee, will end up footing that fuel bill.
The organizers are trying their best to fill in that particular gap.

4. People come and go all the time during the Fly-In, constantly
changing what the overall parking aisles look like. When a group comes
and goes together, that will often leave gaps in the parking areas. We
try to fill those as quickly as possible. Or perhaps they were in the
flyby pattern? I know when all the amphibians went up it made that one
row look very empty. And they were gone for a while over to Lake
Goodwin for the Splash In.

5. Ah... the CAP kids. I suggest talking to the Canadian Air Cadets
legal department. They made a determination that the cadets should not
be around spinning propellers. Brilliant, eh? Well we did have some
Boy Scouts this year to help fill the gap, but yes, there were not
enough kids to help out. The CAP needs to grow their membership in
order to fill that gap left by the Air Cadets. We are also open to
suggestions to other youth groups that show a level of responsibility
and can help out.

6. Who did you ask for information? (As in which department, not
which person) Where did we have a break in communication?

7. I thought, foot traffic was up. But last year I was in a totally
different area. So until I see gate numbers, I really can't say.

8. That's the trouble with those tents and the reason for the new
building you mention later.

9. Thanks.

10. Good comments, and they will be forwarded.

The information you got on the building is way wrong. Nobody is going
to be displaced by its construction. Of the five hangers that will be
torn down, two are used for storage and there are 5 empty hangers
currently to house the 3 planes that will be displaced. So no one is
losing their home. As a result of the new building, we will have a
large, cooled, area for the vendors and possibly the forums too. This
will open up more space to allow even more room for aircraft parking,
and moving those currently placed in the "back 40" closer. All in all
it's a win-win situation. And it's being funded by donations. The
flying community is telling us if they want that building or not. The
eye is definately on the ball.

Again, if you have time, volunteer. That is the ONLY why this Fly-In
happens. Offer up your ideas to the organizers, not just in forums
like this.

wrote)
> 5. Ah... the CAP kids. I suggest talking to the Canadian Air Cadets
> legal department. They made a determination that the cadets should not
> be around spinning propellers. Brilliant, eh? Well we did have some
> Boy Scouts this year to help fill the gap, but yes, there were not
> enough kids to help out. The CAP needs to grow their membership in
> order to fill that gap left by the Air Cadets. We are also open to
> suggestions to other youth groups that show a level of responsibility
> and can help out.


Church groups and Girl Scouts. Ask them now - for next season! For the
Church groups: Men's clubs, Ladies clubs, Youth groups, Neighborhood
Outreach programs, etc.

Senior condos and/or Senior apartments are another great source of willing
people. Bus them over and back, give them a pancake breakfast (and/or
lunch), give them a t-shirt, and they'll give you many hours of enthusiastic
service. Take care of the Seniors and they'll take care of you! :-)

Don't forget the bathroom breaks and "refreshment wagon" for your
volunteers. Bottled Water is the drink of choice for many on a hot day.
ALWAYS have lots of COLD bottled water in the cooler.

Also, some Aviation programs "require" this type of civic
service/volunteering - credits toward graduation. A few years ago we had a
group of 20(?) students from a college aviation program get credit for
working our Airport Open House.


Montblack

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 wrote:

> Again, if you have time, volunteer. That is the ONLY why this Fly-In
> happens. Offer up your ideas to the organizers, not just in forums like
> this.

A friend of mine went with the intention of volunteering all week, but
came home few days early. He was a little put out at having to pay $10 a
day to camp, when he was there to work for free. It does seem reasonable
that, if someone is helping out, he should be able to pitch a tent for
free.

-Dan

We flew in a big aluminum tube and found time during a week of visiting
old and new friends to see Arlington for MY first time. Aside from a
frightful sunburn (note to self: it's an airshow, I'll need my hat!) I
found it entertaining and fairly busy. Even got to meet the charming
and talented Ron Wanttaja, who can look relaxed and at ease lounging in
the shade of a LOW wing homebuilt...pretty good for a guy who's not short!

This year makes, my 5th or 6th continuous year attending
Arlington. It is my first that I've been there without my kids
(they're off visting Grandma in Michigan), but the only with my
older, non-pilot brother.

As usual, we arrived as early Friday as we could and left early
Sunday morning. I always camp at Arlington as it wouldn't feel right
otherwise.

I didn't see anything new this year that I would say that I objected
to. One constant gripe I always have have (but never have gotten
around to voicing) is that the posted forum schedules are unreadable
from 2 feet away. Why can't they be printed just a bit bigger so you
can see them without elbowing everybody away.

I also have never quite understand their plane parking scheme. Due
to when we came in we ended up being parked a fair way out. I
understand that and its ok. However, there were people who showed up
late Saturday and they still got parked way out, despite there being
ample spots available closer in.

For the first time since going it looks like the fuel provider got
their act togather. You could schedule ahead your fuel purchase and
they actually showed up when they were supposed to. In the past,
they would get you when they could, but you never knew how long that
was going to be.

Another nice thing that hasn't always happened is that the ballon
guys got to fly every morning. In years past weather (I assume) kept
them away. Nothing quite like rolling out from under the wing of the
plane and saying good morning to a couple of guys 30 feet over your
head.


As a contrast, I had attended the Golden West Fly-in in Marysville,
CA a few weeks back. I much prefer Arlington. Much friendlier.
Better organized (IMHO).

Oh wait, there is something that ticked me off about Arlington this
year. We arrived on Friday just as the clouds were breaking up.
Lots of planes over Green Valley. WAS I THE ONLY ONE WHO READ THE
@#$^& NOTAM!?! I was simply amazed at the bozos ahead and behind me
that kept yammering on the radio. I had a (I think) BD-4 come by
(close) against the traffic between Green Valley and the city of
Arlington. Talk to one guy on the ground while he was packing up on
Saturday at about 1:30 PM. Reminded him that the field was closing
at 2:00 for the airshow. "What? Why don't they tell us that!"
When I told him that it was in the NOTAM, he admitted that he had
never seen it. "Couldn't find it on the computer".

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

("Frank Stutzman" wrote)
> When I told him that it was in the NOTAM, he admitted that he had never
> seen it. "Couldn't find it on the computer".


#1 Hit) Google: Arlington 2006 + NOTAM
http://www.nweaa.org/flying.cfm
In pdf.

#4 Hit) Google: Arlington 2006 + NOTAM
http://www.faa.gov/ntap/NTAP06JUN08/as06006.htm
HTML

Geez!


Montblack

Ken Finney wrote:
> This will be a negative post, but hopefully, constructive criticism. I've
> been to Oshkosh once, lots of small fly-ins, and every year for the past
> eight years to the Arlington Fly-In (www.nweaa.org).


I have been going since 1972 and found this to be one of the best ever.
I guess some people will always find something to complain about.

Jerry

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 06:40:08 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
> wrote:

<sinp>

>Oh wait, there is something that ticked me off about Arlington this
>year. We arrived on Friday just as the clouds were breaking up.
>Lots of planes over Green Valley. WAS I THE ONLY ONE WHO READ THE
>@#$^& NOTAM!?! I was simply amazed at the bozos ahead and behind me
>that kept yammering on the radio. I had a (I think) BD-4 come by
>(close) against the traffic between Green Valley and the city of
>Arlington. Talk to one guy on the ground while he was packing up on
>Saturday at about 1:30 PM. Reminded him that the field was closing
>at 2:00 for the airshow. "What? Why don't they tell us that!"
>When I told him that it was in the NOTAM, he admitted that he had
>never seen it. "Couldn't find it on the computer".

We were thinking the same thing. The NOTAM clearly states (I'm
paraphrasing here) to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND LISTEN.
Drive your airplane to where the NOTAM tells you to drive it (Green
Valley), watch for other aircraft and LISTEN for instructions. I flew
up twice (Friday and then Saturday) and didn't have to say a word to
anyone either day....

I swear 9 out of ten gomers out there were calling "Arlington
Approach" with their aircraft type & full N numbers blabbing on about
where they were and asking for instructions on how to get to the show.
A couple of years ago, we heard a gal call "Arlington Approach" 25
miles south asking for instructions....

As far as the fly-in goes, the organizers and the warbird guys need
to figure things out and quit fighting over money. On the one hand,
if you can afford to own and fly a million dollar Mustang or Corsair
or whatever, you can afford to fill the tanks with your own money. I
understand some warbird guys will often decline free fuel in an
attempt to "help out" the organizers of fun-to-attend events. The
other side of that coin is if you want rare, crowd-pleasing and/or
desirable warbirds to show up to your event, you just might have to
dig into your pockets a bit to make it happen.

Also, I think a lot of the vendors might be struggling with shlepping
their schtuff all the way to the west coast only to have to pack it
all up and head for Oshkosh shortly after Arlington is over.

My personal observation is that I'm not having as much "fun" there as
I have had in years past, but it still made for an enjoyable weekend.
Nice weather always helps! Last year we got there OK but had
to put down in Renton on the way home and sit there for several
hours waiting for a break in the weather...

Bela P. Havasreti

PS: The field closed @ 3:00pm on Saturday for the airshow

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> You are more than welcome to come volunteer and help out in the setup,
> running and teardown of the Fly-In. The only way this even happens is
> buy the good graces of 300 volunteers. People who give up free time to
> hopefully make your weekend fun and pleasurable.

I volunteer at several fly-ins already, Arlington would be a little
problematical for me, but I'll see what I can do. I will be donating to the
new building, FWIW. Your volunteer efforts are much appreciated.

>
> 1. Your comments on the signs will be sure to be forwarded to the
> appropriate organizers. They should have been by the freeway. That
> being said, in the 12 months between events, holes have a tendancy to
> get filled or destroyed by road work. Property owners change and
> suddenly we can't use a spot we've used for years. I've done sign
> setup, it's not an easy task to get every single one put up.
>

I do sign setup as well (and have a sign making business). Since the Fly-In
folks are on such good terms (I think?) with the City of Arlington, maybe
the city could provide permanent sign locations/tiedowns. Maybe the city
would even be willing to store and put up the signs. Can't hurt to ask.


> 2. No comment, I never made it to the parking lot this year.
>
> 3. I'd suggest directing your comments to the Warbirds. No other EAA
> division gets money to attend a Fly-In, why should they? If they want
> to buy a million dollar airplane, they should be able to afford the
> gas. Otherwise you, the attendee, will end up footing that fuel bill.
> The organizers are trying their best to fill in that particular gap.

I see both sides of the issue, and I may kick myself for suggesting this,
but the cost of admission could be raised. I burned about $36 worth of gas
to drive in, and an extra $1 per ticket, if it would help with the Warbirds
and the airshow, wouldn't hurt that much.

>
> 4. People come and go all the time during the Fly-In, constantly
> changing what the overall parking aisles look like. When a group comes
> and goes together, that will often leave gaps in the parking areas. We
> try to fill those as quickly as possible. Or perhaps they were in the
> flyby pattern? I know when all the amphibians went up it made that one
> row look very empty. And they were gone for a while over to Lake
> Goodwin for the Splash In.
>

I think the lack of the CAP hurt here. If they were there, they could have
help move the planes around.

> 5. Ah... the CAP kids. I suggest talking to the Canadian Air Cadets
> legal department. They made a determination that the cadets should not
> be around spinning propellers. Brilliant, eh? Well we did have some
> Boy Scouts this year to help fill the gap, but yes, there were not
> enough kids to help out. The CAP needs to grow their membership in
> order to fill that gap left by the Air Cadets. We are also open to
> suggestions to other youth groups that show a level of responsibility
> and can help out.

I plan on joining CAP this year. Another poster mentioned aviation programs
at colleges (good idea) and I'll mention Seattle's aviation high school.
I'll be writing a letter to the Canadian consulate and Mr. Harper as well.

>
> 6. Who did you ask for information? (As in which department, not
> which person) Where did we have a break in communication?

Again, I think this was a "lack of CAP" problem. The volunteers on "the
promenade" were the ones people were asking and who didn't know.

>
> 7. I thought, foot traffic was up. But last year I was in a totally
> different area. So until I see gate numbers, I really can't say.
>
> 8. That's the trouble with those tents and the reason for the new
> building you mention later.
>
> 9. Thanks.
>
> 10. Good comments, and they will be forwarded.
>
< snip>

Another poster mentioned the forum schedule signs, excellent point. The
display board is already there, making the sign as big as the board, putting
them on both sides, and probably limiting the info to that day's forums only
would be a big improvement.

> Again, if you have time, volunteer. That is the ONLY why this Fly-In
> happens. Offer up your ideas to the organizers, not just in forums
> like this.
>

I kind of figured if I posted them here, they would make their way back to
the organizers! ;^)

Montblack wrote:
>
> Church groups and Girl Scouts. Ask them now - for next season! For the
> Church groups: Men's clubs, Ladies clubs, Youth groups, Neighborhood
> Outreach programs, etc.
>

I belive the Girl Scouts have the same legal restrictions the Air
Cadets do, but not sure anymore. Worth taking a look at. I was
thinking Boys & Girls Club too, but the one thing that CAP and Air
Cadets brought to the table was a command structure and some
discipline, something that has been exhibited to be missing from many
groups.

> Senior condos and/or Senior apartments are another great source of willing
> people. Bus them over and back, give them a pancake breakfast (and/or
> lunch), give them a t-shirt, and they'll give you many hours of enthusiastic
> service. Take care of the Seniors and they'll take care of you! :-)
>
> Don't forget the bathroom breaks and "refreshment wagon" for your
> volunteers. Bottled Water is the drink of choice for many on a hot day.
> ALWAYS have lots of COLD bottled water in the cooler.
>

Good ideas. All volunteers get a free lunch every day, all the water
they can drink and a t-shirt. They have staff and golf carts dedicated
to just provide water and food.

> Also, some Aviation programs "require" this type of civic
> service/volunteering - credits toward graduation. A few years ago we had a
> group of 20(?) students from a college aviation program get credit for
> working our Airport Open House.
>

Which college? The Aviation High School idea someone mentioned is
good, if we can get them to organize something during summer vacation.

Volunteers that are there for setup and/or teardown should get a
camping spot for free. If he was there during that time, he was given
wrong information. He should contact NWEAA for a full explination.

Being a volunteer doesn't mean you get a complete free ride. I've been
going there for years. Even though I can now get in for free, I still
pay for the days I'm there. If everyone got freebies, then where will
the money come from to put on the show?


Dan Youngquist wrote:
>
> A friend of mine went with the intention of volunteering all week, but
> came home few days early. He was a little put out at having to pay $10 a
> day to camp, when he was there to work for free. It does seem reasonable
> that, if someone is helping out, he should be able to pitch a tent for
> free.
>
> -Dan

Ken Finney wrote:
> This will be a negative post,
>
>

Gee .. my brother was just telling me last nite about his trip up
there and said he and his wife had a fun time and it was a good
show.

Ken Finney wrote:
> I do sign setup as well (and have a sign making business). Since the Fly-In
> folks are on such good terms (I think?) with the City of Arlington, maybe
> the city could provide permanent sign locations/tiedowns. Maybe the city
> would even be willing to store and put up the signs. Can't hurt to ask.
>

Storage isn't an issue. And lack of freeway signs is a dropped ball on
NWEAA's part. It's just a matter of life that causes some holes to
disappear. Construction is a big part of it.

>
> I see both sides of the issue, and I may kick myself for suggesting this,
> but the cost of admission could be raised. I burned about $36 worth of gas
> to drive in, and an extra $1 per ticket, if it would help with the Warbirds
> and the airshow, wouldn't hurt that much.
>

It's also a matter of principle. The last requested amoutn of money I
heard about had seven figures in it. Come on, that's just stupid. They
already get free gas, which no one else gets besides the performers.
They would be paid hundreds of times more than the airshow performers
if they got that kind of money just to show up! They need a goddamned
reality check. We had T-6's, CJ-6 Nachangs, Alpha Jets, Donier Do-27,
and a Yak-52 in the Warbird area. There was a F-8 Crusader on the
ramp. On Saturday we had the Storch and P-47 doing flybys. The only
thing that was missing was an Avenger and a gaggle of Navions, maybe a
P-51. It was their idea and choice to create the "AWO Atoll" with
rented palm trees (!), now they want someone else to foot the bill?
Get real.

>
> I think the lack of the CAP hurt here. If they were there, they could have
> help move the planes around.
>

Once they're parked, they try not to move them. However, parking in
and of itself isn't smooth. The parking guys rely on pilots to tell
them where they want to go, if the pilot doesn't do a little research,
then they end up in the wrong place. Now this is something that could
be shown better on the NWEAA website and I'll send up that suggestion.
But for those folks that want to park together, I suggest taking
ownership of a row. Appoint a lead person, contact NWEAA long prior to
the show requesting a parking area, inform all your pilots to request
that area upon arrival

Hopefully the changes that are coming to the grounds will bring parking
back in closer to the exhibits.

>
> I plan on joining CAP this year. Another poster mentioned aviation programs
> at colleges (good idea) and I'll mention Seattle's aviation high school.
> I'll be writing a letter to the Canadian consulate and Mr. Harper as well.
>

Excellent!

>
> Again, I think this was a "lack of CAP" problem. The volunteers on "the
> promenade" were the ones people were asking and who didn't know.
>

Thanks.

>
> Another poster mentioned the forum schedule signs, excellent point. The
> display board is already there, making the sign as big as the board, putting
> them on both sides, and probably limiting the info to that day's forums only
> would be a big improvement.
>

Good points.

>
> I kind of figured if I posted them here, they would make their way back to
> the organizers! ;^)

Well, it would be best to contact them directly. A simple letter would
suffice and be appreciated.

I agree Jerry, I think it was one of the best I've seen in the last 10
years.


Jerry springer wrote:
> I have been going since 1972 and found this to be one of the best ever.
> I guess some people will always find something to complain about.
>
> Jerry

> >
> > Again, I think this was a "lack of CAP" problem. The volunteers on "the
> > promenade" were the ones people were asking and who didn't know.
> >
>
> Thanks.
>

Whoops, didn't finish my thought... Thanks for the info, obviously
since they are a public point of contact they need to get information
better. Something NWEAA should consider.

wrote)
> Which college? The Aviation High School idea someone mentioned is good,
> if we can get them to organize something during summer vacation.


http://www.stcloudstate.edu/aviation/
St Cloud State - University
Central Minnesota. 75 miles (NW) of the Twin Cities.

Some still call it St Cloud Teacher's College, years later it became
SC-"State", recently they added University for: SCS"U".

In the 70's and 80's it had the reputation as "party school".


Montblack

("Otis Winslow" wrote)
> Gee .. my brother was just telling me last nite about his trip up there
> and said he and his wife had a fun time and it was a good show.


I read the OP'er as a person with a critical eye - which, in management
(ownership), is not such a bad thing. He's "taking ownership" of the event -
another good thing, even if it is a cliche.

His comments were those of a restaurant manager/owner walking through the
kitchen. Always moving. Always thinking. Always looking for ways to improve
the dining experience, etc.

Hopefully the good far outweigh the bad, so you concentrate on the bad.

I have no problem understanding where he's coming from.


Montblack
Sundance Kid: "You just keep thinkin' Butch. That's what you're good at."

"Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
...
> Ken Finney wrote:
>> This will be a negative post,
>
> Gee .. my brother was just telling me last nite about his trip up
> there and said he and his wife had a fun time and it was a good
> show.

It was a good show. I had a fun time. But some things weren't as good as
past years (and I'm sure some were even better).

The environment I'm trained in has us ask ourselves everyday "Can you do
your work better today than you did yesterday? If not, what needs to
change? Is there something you can do that would make someone else's work
easier? If so, when can you get it done? Do you need any help making it
happen?" That's all I was trying to present.

> wrote

> I belive the Girl Scouts have the same legal restrictions the Air
> Cadets do, but not sure anymore. Worth taking a look at. I was
> thinking Boys & Girls Club too, but the one thing that CAP and Air
> Cadets brought to the table was a command structure and some
> discipline, something that has been exhibited to be missing from many
> groups.

Perhaps you are unaware of another branch of Boy Scouts, which is the
Explorers. They specialize, along career, or just special areas of
interest.

At Airventure, there is a base camp of around 100 boys and girls camping on
the grounds. They are Aviation Explorers from a wide area of the country
coming to participate, and volunteer their time, around 3 hours per day,
plus 20 or 30 adult advisors that also volunteer. The youth and adults get
some basic aircraft handling instruction, and I believe you could get a copy
of the tape. Training also helps looks after itself, in the fact that there
are almost half of each year's group returning for the next year.

Did you know that all of the aircraft parking at Airventure in the homebuilt
showplane area (mostly push in and push out to the burn line) is done by
Aviation Explorers? The adult advisors can get special training to do the
directing on the taxiways on the north half of 18-36. The only safety
restriction from the Boy Scouts is that they can not go past the burn line
until they are 16, and they may not touch a prop or spinner. The adults on
point have to be 16 (or 21) and have to attended 3 years before.

It takes a local core to organize the base camp (a local EAA chapter) and
see to the feeding and logistical needs of the group, but it is a great
success, and a very important part of the success of the show.

Look into it. Sounds like you could use the help.

(Anyone), E-mail me if you would like some further info. on Explorers, and
would like to have your EAA sponsor starting a local group. Our youth need
it! Eliminate the capital letters in my addy, and include Aviation
Explorers in the subject line.
--
Jim in NC

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Volunteers that are there for setup and/or teardown should get a
> camping spot for free. If he was there during that time, he was given
> wrong information. He should contact NWEAA for a full explination.
>
> Being a volunteer doesn't mean you get a complete free ride. I've been
> going there for years. Even though I can now get in for free, I still
> pay for the days I'm there. If everyone got freebies, then where will
> the money come from to put on the show?

If there is a shortage of volunteers at any event, then laws of supply and
demand dictate that changes need to be made. When camping requires very
little monetary output by the show organizers, they would be out very little
money by letting the volunteer work a stated number of hours and camp for
free for a day.

They could still pay to get in. It would not be hard to have a ticket given
to a volunteer for working X number of hours, then given to the camping
attendant for N number of free days camping for those hours worked, and
those days free camping refunded.

Some thoughts on the signage. Many places have permanent road signs that
fold in half, and are opened up for the event. Perhaps that could be used
for the sign problem. Also, signs with a picture of an airplane on them and
an arrow showing which way to turn are a common thing in most communities.
It sounds like more are needed. If there were a signpost, it would be a
simple thing to bring out another sign to bolt onto the signpost with the
extra information, such as camping, or general admission parking.
--
Jim in NC

Jim,

When I worked the Wings Over Houston show in 2003, I noticed that they
had a very effective portable signage system. This consisted of a
series of folding "sandwich-board" type signs made from 1/2-sheets of
plywood, OSB, etc. hinged at the top, with a short section of rope
attached to the backs to keep the signs from spreading open too far.
Both sides of the sign were painted white. In foot-tall black letters,
the front of the sign simply said AIR SHOW. Under this was a large
plywood arrow painted day-glo orange. It was bolted to the sign at its
center so that the arrow could be pointed in the proper direction by
the sign crew no matter where the sign was placed. Simple and to the
point. Of course, there were a few other more specific signs like AIR
SHOW VENDORS, PARKING, GATES / TICKETS, EXIT, etc.

This type of sign could be made by a troup of Boy Scouts for under $15
each and would probably last a few seasons. And since they are fairly
small, they could be placed on the side of the road at critical
intersections on the days of the event, and then quickly removed,
provided the county sign Nazis would grant a waiver for the event days.

Just a thought.

Harry

("wright1902glider" wrote)
> When I worked the Wings Over Houston show in 2003, I noticed that they had
> a very effective portable signage system. This consisted of a series of
> folding "sandwich-board" type signs made from 1/2-sheets of plywood, OSB,
> etc. hinged at the top, with a short section of rope attached to the backs
> to keep the signs from spreading open too far.


We're lucky, we have an old trailer for all of our signs.

We use 50-70 lb sandbags under each sign:
1.) Wrap a short bungee cord around the sandbag.
2.) Hook a couple of bungees, from the top of the sign, down to the sandbag
bungee. Easy and quick ...and cheap.

Good point on the spinning arrows! More people need to do that when creating
signs.


Montblack

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 wrote:

> Volunteers that are there for setup and/or teardown should get a camping
> spot for free. If he was there during that time, he was given wrong
> information. He should contact NWEAA for a full explination.

He was there 2 days before the show started -- obviously not just trying
to get a freebie -- and intended to work from then until the end of the
show. He was asked to pay $10/day to camp starting from the moment he
arrived, and told only those who had helped the previous year (not _a_
previous year, like he has) could camp for free. He did verify the info
he was given.

> If everyone got freebies, then where will the money come from to put
> on the show?

I don't know, but it shouldn't come from those who are donating their time
to make the show possible. As someone else noted, that's really going to
cut down on your volunteer pool. I'm sure my friend isn't the only one
who doesn't like it, and no doubt you never hear about most of them.

-Dan

his was just a one
> year thing, and that next year will be the biggest and best yet. AND FOR
> HEAVEN'S SAKE, GET THE CIVIL AIR PATROL BACK!!!
>


The very best part of Arlington this year was the ABSENCE of the CAP.

Everything runs smoother without the input from this group of marching
morons.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

("karl gruber" wrote)
> The very best part of Arlington this year was the ABSENCE of the CAP.
>
> Everything runs smoother without the input from this group of marching
> morons.


How so? Do the kids lack ...focus, or are there other issues - at the
command (adult) level?


Montblack

> > The very best part of Arlington this year was the ABSENCE of the CAP.
> >
> > Everything runs smoother without the input from this group of marching
> > morons.
>
>
> How so? Do the kids lack ...focus, or are there other issues - at the
> command (adult) level?

Yes! <g>

Only speaking from my experience from camping right next to the capies at
OSH, I have a little insight that may carry over when talking about
Arlington.

The commanding officer is all important, when it comes to the attitude of
the boys, but that does not go "all of the way" towards fixing all of the
problems. Some years (read most) the capies yell at the top of their lungs
while they are doing morning formation and exercise, "wake up boy scouts"
over and over again. Our boys do not need to be on duty for an extra hour,
and even then, that is only the people scheduled for the first shift. Many
of them are typical teenagers, and sleep in, or try to, with all of the
yelling going on. There is no room, or need, for that kind of behavior, and
the commander needs to be all over that kind of thing. Most did not correct
it, or even make an effort to, even after the problem was pointed out.

At OSH, the capies compete from all over the country for the right to be
there. Strike one. They all (or many, at least) have a "I'm better than
all of the rest of you mortals" attitude.

It is a semi military unit. Perhaps an "all of the way military" unit.
They are constantly ramped up, gung ho, get it done, "I know what all of the
answers are." Strike two. They are given far more authority (at least
they think they have) than they have answers for, but they would rather
bluff their way through, than admit they don't know something. At times, it
appears as they need a better adult-student ratio, so they are more closely
supervised by someone who is experienced in what needs to happen to get the
job done.

The regimented structure and "only one right answer" is a good thing at
times, but there are times where things do not go as planned, and
improvisation is needed. Strike three. When more flexibility is needed, it
requires judgement; possibly beyond their years, and most definately beyond
their experience.

By the way, most of the youth in the Aviaton Explorers unit do not
appreciate being called Boy Scouts. Many of them are girls. <g> Only a
few of them know how to tie a knot or start a campfire. Aviation Explorers
are a branch of BSA, called "Learning for Life.")

The Boys Scouts at OSH always have an adult within quick reach, that has
been doing the same job for many, many years. About half of the youth are
returners from previous OSH years, and that helps them know what to expect
and what to do. Add to that, the fact that most of the units help with 1 or
more airshows per year in their own communities. It all adds up to youth
and adults with more airshow specific experience, and more adults to keep
things straight when things don't go as planned. Granted, things still do
not always go as planned, but that is not for lack of effort and desire.

I don't want to come off as totally badmouthing the Capies. Many of them are
fine young boys and girls, who really want to do a good job. Unfortunately,
when they all get in the group, they lose some of their personal idenity,
and some of them get carried away, and get a little too much "mob
mentality."

I am just pointing out a few of the reasons (IMHO) that some people have
mentioned that things went better without them there. I was not there, so I
can't make a call on that one. I would think that if no group stepped up to
fill their place, they would be missed.
--
Jim in NC

I was there Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

Weather delayed many arrivals until Friday, but there was a very good
turnout of homebuilts and factory aircraft on Friday.

Personally, I was glad the warbirds were not there in any number. I don't
want any of the gate money going to warbird owners. Let them pay their own
way like everyone else. (When they do show, don't let them dominate the
airshow.)

I noticed that the CAP was not there, but they weren't missed.

The two vendors that I talked to about business both said that business was
good.

Arlington is an excellent fly-in. It is not a crassly commercial airshow /
fair / circus / flea market like Oshkosh and Lakeland have become.

I highly recommend it to anyone interested in homebuilding and or sport
flying.


BJC

"Ken Finney" > wrote in message
...
> This will be a negative post, but hopefully, constructive criticism. I've
> been to Oshkosh once, lots of small fly-ins, and every year for the past
> eight years to the Arlington Fly-In (www.nweaa.org). Oshkosh is SO big,
> it is difficult to take away a lot of lessons that are applicable to
> smaller fly-ins, but I regard Arlington as the way things should be done.
> Not this year. This year I spent a lot of time building up Arlington to
> the non-aviation people I work with, and hopefully, several of them
> attended. I hope they weren't disappointed. Below I've listed some of my
> observations.
>
> 1. Where were the signs? Maybe the person that puts up the signs on the
> freeway and all the intersections on the way over-slept. But on my way
> in, the normal signs weren't there. I even missed a turn and had to
> backtrack a mile or so.
>
> 2. I got there about 30 minutes after the gates opened on Saturday, and
> there were less cars than when I normally get there 15 minutes before the
> gates opened.
>
> 3, Walked through the gates, and "Where are the Warbirds???" Last year,
> the Warbirds and Arlington had a public falling out, but supposedly had
> made up. I guess someone forgot to tell the Warbirds. I hadn't realized
> it, but the WWII "stagedoor canteen" display was put on by the warbirds
> folks, and a lot of people noticed it wasn't there. (I guess it wasn't
> there last year either, and I didn't notice?)
>
> 4. Noticed a lot of empty airplane spaces. Was told that they had been
> occupied on Friday, but that those airplanes had already left. I don't
> know if in previous years the closer spots were allocated to planes that
> were going to be there for a longer period of time or what. Maybe they
> back-filled those spots when the previous airplanes left. Maybe it was
> just luck. But it makes a bad impression when the spaces closest to the
> public are largely empty.
>
> 5. Where was the Civil Air Patrol??? Normally, there are about 180-200
> Cadets in attendance, doing outstanding duty. One of the Senior members
> told me that he showed up and was shocked to not find any Cadets. Someone
> else told me that it was a known thing that Cadets wouldn't be there.
> About 17 Cadets were there, but it was a disaster. The Arlington
> organizers went nuts trying to find any warm bodies to backfill, but it
> was a losing proposition. Those volunteers in attendance did a yeoman's
> duty, but were over-whelmed.
>
> 6. Information was hard to obtain. Were the winds too high for a balloon
> glow or not?
>
> 7. I don't know the attendance figures (it did pick up quite a bit on
> Saturday afternoon), but several exhibitors said their foot traffic was
> down by 50% from last year.
>
> 8. The exhibition tent was HOT, and the tables weren't being manned with
> any regularity. This isn't the organizers fault; exhibitors, if you are
> going to spend the money for space, make sure someone is there the whole
> time! If you can't tag team and have to take a break, leave a sign that
> says when you'll be back, not "Back in 15 minutes", because the shoppers
> won't know when the 15 minutes started. This applies to the exhibitors
> outside the tent, too.
>
> 9. Not everything was negative. The food was great as always (but a
> little more expensive, I think). The shuttles were running all the time.
> The antique tractor people were there with a good display, as always.
> Good airshow. Good runway movies, which leads to #10 below.
>
> 10. The runway movie on Saturday night was "One Six Right". Good movie,
> also a good movie for boring the kids to sleep! One thing that was
> stressed over and over again in the movie was the need for aviation people
> to involve non-aviation people. Aviation people talk to each other about
> how great aviation is, but their outreach to others is very poor. This is
> biggest problem I saw this year. There were radio commercials, but the
> url they gave to get more information was long, I couldn't remember it.
> The newspaper "things to do this weekend" didn't list the Fly-In. (I have
> a pet peeve against the term "fly-in" itself; why would a non-aviation
> person be interested in a fly-in? I much prefer the terms "aviation
> fair", "aviation celebration", "air fair", "air show", etc.) If I was
> going for the first time, I don't know how long it would have taken me to
> find it; the first time I went (1998?), there were lots of signs, it would
> have been impossible NOT to find it.
>
> Arlington is planning on building a convention center, which will cause
> the destruction of many hangers (they will be replaced), and I think this
> contributed to "taking their eyes off the ball" and letting the fly-in
> proceed on momentum. In the past years, Arlington has gotten better with
> each year; not this year. A fly-in (sic) is an organic thing, and it
> needs constant care and nurturing or it will decline. I hope this was
> just a one year thing, and that next year will be the biggest and best
> yet. AND FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE, GET THE CIVIL AIR PATROL BACK!!!
>
>
>
>

Dan Youngquist wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 wrote:
>
>> Volunteers that are there for setup and/or teardown should get a
>> camping spot for free. If he was there during that time, he was given
>> wrong information. He should contact NWEAA for a full explination.
>
>
> He was there 2 days before the show started -- obviously not just trying
> to get a freebie -- and intended to work from then until the end of the
> show. He was asked to pay $10/day to camp starting from the moment he
> arrived, and told only those who had helped the previous year (not _a_
> previous year, like he has) could camp for free. He did verify the info
> he was given.
>
>> If everyone got freebies, then where will the money come from to put
>> on the show?
>
>
> I don't know, but it shouldn't come from those who are donating their
> time to make the show possible. As someone else noted, that's really
> going to cut down on your volunteer pool. I'm sure my friend isn't the
> only one who doesn't like it, and no doubt you never hear about most of
> them.
>
> -Dan

Following your logic I spend a lot of money flying my experimental
aircraft to the show so that others can come and see it. Seems like that
I should get in for free also :-) NOT!!!


Jerry

karl gruber wrote:

> his was just a one
>
>>year thing, and that next year will be the biggest and best yet. AND FOR
>>HEAVEN'S SAKE, GET THE CIVIL AIR PATROL BACK!!!
>>
>
>
>
> The very best part of Arlington this year was the ABSENCE of the CAP.
>
> Everything runs smoother without the input from this group of marching
> morons.
>
> Karl
> "Curator" N185KG
>
>

I would not call them morons, but I do agree that they are not needed.
They do not have a clue how to park airplanes or where to push on them
when trying to help move them. There are enough willing pilots there
that will help with aircraft movement if a hand is needed.


Jerry

Montblack wrote:

> ("karl gruber" wrote)
>
>> The very best part of Arlington this year was the ABSENCE of the CAP.
>>
>> Everything runs smoother without the input from this group of marching
>> morons.
>
>
>
> How so? Do the kids lack ...focus, or are there other issues - at the
> command (adult) level?
>
>
> Montblack
>

I have found the kids both Canadians and USA to be very well disaplined
and polite. There help though is not really help.


Jerry

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 18:21:21 GMT, "Ken Finney" >
wrote:

> This will be a negative post, but hopefully, constructive criticism.

My turn! :-)

> 1. Where were the signs? Maybe the person that puts up the signs on the
> freeway and all the intersections on the way over-slept. But on my way in,
> the normal signs weren't there. I even missed a turn and had to backtrack a
> mile or so.

I noticed the lack of signage, too, though I know my way there well enough that
I didn't need them. My real clue something was amiss was at the "short cut" off
Smokey Point Blvd... there's usually a sign that tries to direct folks down the
road a piece to keep from driving through that residential area. Wasn't there
this year.

I understand the posting about this particular ball being dropped...can happen
to any organization. But it's a ball that could have been "picked up" in a half
hour by one guy in a car driving around putting up signs. Their not being up on
Wednesday is understandable; their not being up by Sunday is a bit perplexing.

> 2. I got there about 30 minutes after the gates opened on Saturday, and
> there were less cars than when I normally get there 15 minutes before the
> gates opened.

I flew my plane up on Wednesday, cadged a ride home, then drove up Friday and
Saturday. Caught a ride back to the airport on Sunday, then flew the plane
home.

On the days I drove, I also felt the parking lot was a bit emptier than normal.
I seemed to get less "flowage" past my airplane than in past years. Most of the
time, I'd hoist a half dozen kids into the cockpit during the course of an
afternoon. Not this time, though I was beset by a pair of giggling newlyweds on
Friday noon. First time I ever saw a bow tie on a Hawaiian shirt :-)

Still, I did meet up with several folks interested in Fly Babies. Handed out a
batch of CD-ROMs. I was in a less-optimal location this year, which might
explain the lower traffic.

> 3, Walked through the gates, and "Where are the Warbirds???" Last year,
> the Warbirds and Arlington had a public falling out, but supposedly had made
> up. I guess someone forgot to tell the Warbirds. I hadn't realized it, but
> the WWII "stagedoor canteen" display was put on by the warbirds folks, and a
> lot of people noticed it wasn't there. (I guess it wasn't there last year
> either, and I didn't notice?)

It's a situation that is a bit perplexing, and apparently still somewhat
controversial... I tend to wonder if the decision has anything to do with rumors
about high turnovers among the officers prior to last year's Fly-In.

Speaking for myself, I enjoy watching the warbirds fly, but I wouldn't make my
go/no-go decision based on their presence. I'd heard the warbirders wanted
their gas and hotel expenses paid for by the fly-in, though I'm VERY skeptical
about the posted claim that the bill would have been over a million dollars.

But...we have to remember that this show gets two kinds of attendees: Pilots,
and the general public. The warbirds *are* a big draw for the non-flying
public, especially with major Air Force, Army, and Navy air bases (and two Naval
bases) within driving range of Arlington. I met a young married Air Force
enlisted couple that I knew at last year's fly in, and the first thing they
asked is 'Where are the warbirds?"

It really boils down to the economics: The fly-in obviously can't afford to
compensate the warbirders more than their presence brings in. The couple I met
last year didn't come this year. Next year, without the warbirds, there'll be
more people that'll decide not to come because they're just not that interested.
The true impact of the breach between Arlington and the warbirders won't be seen
for several years yet.

Still. Geeze, if I owned a P-51 or something, I'd want to show it off. I'd
take it to the Fly-In and just park the sucker for the weekend and watch the
crowds ogle it. I've gotta fly it *anyway*, why not just bring it to the local
fly-in? Sit in a lawn chair and listen for folks oohhh and ahhh over it.

The Flying Heritage Collection is a good alternative, but few of the planes make
it to the main show. Certainly one can catch a shuttle to visit the collection,
but it's very difficult on the one-day visit most non-aviation types take.
Taking the shuttle takes time, and most of them probably want to be back at the
main display area in time for the air show.

> 4. Noticed a lot of empty airplane spaces. Was told that they had been
> occupied on Friday, but that those airplanes had already left.

In the past, when I flew up on Wednesday, I always scarfed up the choice corner
slot on the "tube and fabric" row, on the north end by the main pedestrian
walkway. A Canadian Fly Baby owner, who usually arrived on Thursday, typically
was able to grab the spot next to me, and we usually could still fit some more
Fly Babies in with us until Friday noon.

This time, though, the end of my choice row was already filled when I got there.
I parked next to the Canadian Fly Baby with two spaces open next to me, in which
I hoped to put a couple of more Fly Babies.

I never lured any more Fly Babies to us...but then, those two open spots were
never filled, anyway. That had *never* happened before; the row always was
filled by Friday noon. What's more, this "homebuilt" row had two later-model
Cessnas parked in it!

Typically, Saturday seems to be the busiest day, but the homebuilt parking this
year never did seem to fill up.

> ... I don't know
> if in previous years the closer spots were allocated to planes that were
> going to be there for a longer period of time or what. Maybe they
> back-filled those spots when the previous airplanes left. Maybe it was
> just luck. But it makes a bad impression when the spaces closest to the
> public are largely empty.

The RV area seemed a really sparsely attended, but they did set up a separate
corral for the Blackjack squadron across the main taxiway...this took out about
two dozen RVs from the traditional area. I also noticed what appeared to be
MORE homebuilts parked on the far side of the new taxiway (I had some mobility
problems this weekend and didn't make it over there). If so, it's curious that
they were parked so far from the main display area. Ken's right about the
negative impression given with empty parking spaces, and this year seemed worse
than normal.

The public entry to Arlington is fantastic, it couldn't be better. The main
parking lot is right at the end of the ultralight area, and the main entry is
directly adjacent to the ultralight display area. When people drive in to the
fly-in, they walk to the gate with ultralights and gyros buzzing overhead, and
enter directly into the hustle and bustle of the ultralight vendor area.

But as they walked further into the grounds, though...Sheesh. There was an "LSA
Mall" set up directly across from the ultralight grounds. It had eight or so
planes scattered through it, but the area allocated for it was so large it had a
ghost-town feel to it.

Directly behind the LSA Mall was the RV parking area...which, again, had a lot
of open gaps.

And while I may be committing heresy here, I have to say it: I don't think the
general public finds the RV tiedown area all that interesting. *I* know the
difference between an RV-3 and an RV-9, but to the non-homebuilt buff, they all
look about the same. Some sit on their tails, some on nosewheels, some are a
bit longer or wider. But to the non-aficionado, it's the same basic
configuration, the same basic look, just a few dozen planes that don't look all
that much different from the ones parked at the local airport. Think Joe
Sixpack can tell an RV-6A from a Grumman TR-2?

Arlington should swap the RV and Canard parking areas. Let the first homebuilts
visible to the public be the exotic looking ones...and make the next rows the
places for the homebuilt biplanes, amphibians, Avid Flyers, and other
less-common types. Let's show the general public the full range of homebuilt
aircraft from the moment they arrive.

Put the RVs right next to the main vendor area. That'll make it the first
parking area that the *pilot* visitor taxis by. They're the people the design
appeals to the most, why not make RVs the first homebuilts they see? Tuck it up
next to the vendor area, and move Vans' booth adjacent to it.

And if they're going to do the "LSA Mall" again, put it with the vendors rather
than leaving a set of planes sitting alone in a wide-open space.

Speaking about wide-open spaces, Sunday is pretty sad. It's certainly not the
Fly-In's fault, but the vast majority of aircraft owners seem to clear out on
Saturday after the airshow or on Sunday morning. The row I was parked in had
~20-25 planes on Saturday, but by the time I drove up on Sunday, there were just
three other planes left in the row. Only one was a homebuilt.

And as Ken mentioned, the spaces closest to the public seem the worst hit. I
always feel for the folks at the booth buying tickets as I walk in on Sunday.
There's really nothing much left, other than the airshow itself.

I'm not sure what the Fly-In could do to combat this. It would be nice to
allocate the choice row-end spots to folks who are going to stay through Sunday,
but this would be very awkward to implement.

My own primary irritant happened on Sunday. My Fly Baby needs new tires, and I
was checking out the Fly Market and whatnot on Friday and Saturday and finally
decided to order from one of the vendors that was offering free shipping. I
figured there was no rush...I'd order on Sunday, when the crowd was down.

As the air show finished about 2:55 Sunday, I went to the tent to try place the
order. The vendor was gone. Not sitting with the tent flaps down, not packing
up to leave. Just bare tables.

One thing that seemed to work nice was the low-power radio station. I watched
the airshow on Friday from a buddy's campsite, and it was a lot nicer running
the narration over the radio in the rather than content with echoing speakers.
Where my plane was parked, the closest speaker was far enough away that it could
be listened to when desired, or easily tuned out for conversation.

On the other hand, though, a couple of buddies had the misfortune of having
their classic scratch-built homebuilts parked directly *under* a loudspeaker. It
was impossible to try to talk to folks about the aircraft with the speaker
roaring overhead.

There's really not much reason *every* PA statement has to go to *every*
speaker. The antiques, classics, and homebuilts owners are there to socialize
and discuss their aircraft, and there's no reason to force routine non-airshow
narration into every conversation. Let folks listen to it over the low-power
station, if they want. The general public, again, will be mostly congregating
around the commercial area. Run the speakers there. Otherwise, shut the
speakers off in aircraft parking areas, except for important announcements or
the narration for the air show itself.

On the positive side, I felt the volunteers did an excellent job. The
auto-parking area was well staffed and efficient, the grounds were pretty much
litter-free, the Ramp control folks did an excellent job, the trash cans were
regularly emptied, the trams kept running, and the porta-potties were clean.
What else can one ask for? :-)

Ron Wanttaja

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:27:27 +0000 (UTC), Frank Stutzman
> wrote:

> Ron Wanttaja > wrote:
>
> > Still. Geeze, if I owned a P-51 or something, I'd want to show it
> > off. I'd take it to the Fly-In and just park the sucker for the
> > weekend and watch the crowds ogle it. I've gotta fly it *anyway*,
> > why not just bring it to the local fly-in? Sit in a lawn chair and
> > listen for folks oohhh and ahhh over it.
>
> But, Ron, thats what you already do with Moonraker ;-)

Nah, I let folks sit *in* Moonraker. If I had a warbird, I wouldn't let 'em put
their muddy feet on the floor.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

I do agree that the capies do take themselves too seriously at
times...marching in formation through the airshow crowd, wearing gear
harness' with bundles of rope and other useless junk, etc.

I've commented on this before and got jumped on, but I don't care!

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
>
> On the days I drove, I also felt the parking lot was a bit emptier than normal.
> I seemed to get less "flowage" past my airplane than in past years. Most of the
> time, I'd hoist a half dozen kids into the cockpit during the course of an
> afternoon. Not this time, though I was beset by a pair of giggling newlyweds on
> Friday noon. First time I ever saw a bow tie on a Hawaiian shirt :-)

Giggling? Surely you exaggerate.

- J.O.-

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 13:19:35 GMT, John Ousterhout
> wrote:

> Ron Wanttaja wrote:
> >
> > On the days I drove, I also felt the parking lot was a bit emptier than normal.
> > I seemed to get less "flowage" past my airplane than in past years. Most of the
> > time, I'd hoist a half dozen kids into the cockpit during the course of an
> > afternoon. Not this time, though I was beset by a pair of giggling newlyweds on
> > Friday noon. First time I ever saw a bow tie on a Hawaiian shirt :-)
>
> Giggling? Surely you exaggerate.

Moi? :-)

Ron Wanttaja

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 02:31:30 GMT, Jerry springer > wrote:

> Ron, you must attend a different Arlington than I do.:-) There is a
> continuous stream of people coming by the RV's asking questions about
> them and wanting information about them.

I don't doubt that...after all, about 40% of new homebuilts registered last year
were RVs. However, I figure a lot of the people coming by aren't the non-flying
public. It's the classic dichotomy...attendees are split between the people who
are already knowledgable about homebuilts (and thus interested in specific
types) and those with little aviation knowledge. The RV'ers certainly (and
justifiably) get the lion's share of the former. But since we're trying to
"hook" the latter, it would be nice if they saw more variety when first entering
the fly-in grounds.

> You also missed the mark when you said that the RV parking area
> was sparse this year, the fact is that it was so full some of the
> time that there was a overrun parking area behind the Blackjack
> parking are for RV's. there were some unhappy RV pilots because there
> was not enough parking area in the RV parking corral.

It certainly seemed to be suffering from gaposis when I walked by, more so than
the antique and classic rows adjoining it. Perhaps that was a temporary affair,
or an effect of parking the RVs well back from the barricades. I did see what
appeared to be your "overrun" RV parking area (and mentioned it in my original
post)...I saw homebuilts in the distance in an unusual location, but I had
trouble getting there to check it out.

> BTW it is always neat to see FlyBaby 500F is still going.

This was its last airshow appearance. It's going to be hung from the ceiling of
the Great Gallery of Seattle's Museum of Flight this autumn. Chapter 26
"borrowed" it from the museum and trailered it to Arlington as part of our 50th
anniversary celebration.

A lot of memories, there, for a lot more people than just myself. Cecil
Hendricks, our chapter's last surviving founding member and the man who lead the
restoration team in '82, sat by it most of the show. Us spryer types were
popping into and out of the cockpit all weekend getting our pictures taken.

This was the first chance I'd had to examine N500F since buying Moonraker, and
the differences are interesting. N500F's cockpit has a LOT more room (no
avionics box on the floor, and heel brakes instead of toe brakes). But the
heavier sheet metal of the turtledeck of my airplane, albeit heavier, means one
don't have to be as careful getting in and out...I was surprised to feel the
metal on N500F flexing under my hands as I steadied myself, and the metal is
definitely rumpled.

Ron Wanttaja

"Byron Covey" > wrote in message
...
>I was there Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.
>
> Weather delayed many arrivals until Friday, but there was a very good
> turnout of homebuilts and factory aircraft on Friday.
>
> Personally, I was glad the warbirds were not there in any number. I don't
> want any of the gate money going to warbird owners. Let them pay their
> own way like everyone else. (When they do show, don't let them dominate
> the airshow.)
>
> I noticed that the CAP was not there, but they weren't missed.
>
> The two vendors that I talked to about business both said that business
> was good.
>
> Arlington is an excellent fly-in. It is not a crassly commercial airshow
> / fair / circus / flea market like Oshkosh and Lakeland have become.
>
> I highly recommend it to anyone interested in homebuilding and or sport
> flying.

< snip >

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Arlington, as "the third
largest aviation event in the US" does have identity issues. Is it going to
stay a "fly-in" (a term which I've previously said isn't the best to attract
"non-insiders") or will it become more of the "airshow/fair/circus/flea
market" that does attract "non-insiders" and expose them to aviation, but at
the same time discourages many "insiders".

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
> Speaking for myself, I enjoy watching the warbirds fly, but I wouldn't make my
> go/no-go decision based on their presence. I'd heard the warbirders wanted
> their gas and hotel expenses paid for by the fly-in, though I'm VERY skeptical
> about the posted claim that the bill would have been over a million dollars.
>

I'm an idiot... FIVE figures... not seven... Sorry about that typo.

> Still. Geeze, if I owned a P-51 or something, I'd want to show it off. I'd
> take it to the Fly-In and just park the sucker for the weekend and watch the
> crowds ogle it. I've gotta fly it *anyway*, why not just bring it to the local
> fly-in? Sit in a lawn chair and listen for folks oohhh and ahhh over it.
>

One would think that is the case. But in all the years I've been going
to Arlington, I never once, not one single time, was able to shoot the
bull with one of the warbird owners there. They park and disappear,
seemingly not wanting to be bothered by the masses.

>
> I never lured any more Fly Babies to us...but then, those two open spots were
> never filled, anyway. That had *never* happened before; the row always was
> filled by Friday noon. What's more, this "homebuilt" row had two later-model
> Cessnas parked in it!
>

The problem here is two fold:

1. People arriving in dissimilar aircraft wishing to camp together.
2. Aircraft parking doesn't have people that really recognize the
difference in airplanes.

> Directly behind the LSA Mall was the RV parking area...which, again, had a lot
> of open gaps.
>

I think this was mainly due to no-shows. The idea was to have a lineup
of LSA's for prospective buyers to 'test fit' one right after another
without being bothered by salespeople. Thereafter, they can go to the
booths in the vendor area of the airplane(s) they wanted more info
about.

In excecution, didn't quite work out this year....

>
> As the air show finished about 2:55 Sunday, I went to the tent to try place the
> order. The vendor was gone. Not sitting with the tent flaps down, not packing
> up to leave. Just bare tables.
>

Agreed. Vendors, including the EAA, were gone WAY too fast. Teardown
really shouldn't start until 4pm, an hour after the airshow. But after
a week there, many are hot to trot to get home.

> wrote

> Agreed. Vendors, including the EAA, were gone WAY too fast. Teardown
> really shouldn't start until 4pm, an hour after the airshow. But after
> a week there, many are hot to trot to get home.

Easy solution, to that. Have a $500 dollar deposit on the spot, which will
be given out by an airshow representative, at their booth, at 4PM, if it is
still intact and manned.

The same thing needs to be done at OSH.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote
>
>> Agreed. Vendors, including the EAA, were gone WAY too fast. Teardown
>> really shouldn't start until 4pm, an hour after the airshow. But after
>> a week there, many are hot to trot to get home.
>
> Easy solution, to that. Have a $500 dollar deposit on the spot, which
> will
> be given out by an airshow representative, at their booth, at 4PM, if it
> is
> still intact and manned.
>
> The same thing needs to be done at OSH.
>

In my one and only (so far) trip to OSH (2004), I couldn't believe that most
of the food places shut down for the day during the airshow. So, after the
airshow, here are a bunch of hungry and thirsty people with time to kill
before the Theatre in the Woods, and the few food places still open were
shutting down as fast as they could.

On 14 Jul 2006 11:40:30 -0700, wrote:

>
> Ron Wanttaja wrote:
> > Speaking for myself, I enjoy watching the warbirds fly, but I wouldn't make my
> > go/no-go decision based on their presence. I'd heard the warbirders wanted
> > their gas and hotel expenses paid for by the fly-in, though I'm VERY skeptical
> > about the posted claim that the bill would have been over a million dollars.
> >
>
> I'm an idiot... FIVE figures... not seven... Sorry about that typo.

You must be an estimator at Boeing. :-)

> > Still. Geeze, if I owned a P-51 or something, I'd want to show it off. I'd
> > take it to the Fly-In and just park the sucker for the weekend and watch the
> > crowds ogle it. I've gotta fly it *anyway*, why not just bring it to the local
> > fly-in? Sit in a lawn chair and listen for folks oohhh and ahhh over it.
>
> One would think that is the case. But in all the years I've been going
> to Arlington, I never once, not one single time, was able to shoot the
> bull with one of the warbird owners there. They park and disappear,
> seemingly not wanting to be bothered by the masses.

I guess rich people *are* different from us, after all.

> > I never lured any more Fly Babies to us...but then, those two open spots were
> > never filled, anyway. That had *never* happened before; the row always was
> > filled by Friday noon. What's more, this "homebuilt" row had two later-model
> > Cessnas parked in it!
>
> The problem here is two fold:
>
> 1. People arriving in dissimilar aircraft wishing to camp together.
> 2. Aircraft parking doesn't have people that really recognize the
> difference in airplanes.

<Cough>, they can't tell a Cessna 172 from a homebuilt?

I'm suspecting #1 was true in the case of the 172. But still, on a busy
weekend, that might mean a guy with a homebuilt has to go park in Jerry
Springer's penalty box behind the Blackjack corral. Hardly seems fair...if the
172 wants to camp with his homebuilt, let them both go to the spamcan row to
park.

> I think this was mainly due to no-shows. The idea was to have a lineup
> of LSA's for prospective buyers to 'test fit' one right after another
> without being bothered by salespeople. Thereafter, they can go to the
> booths in the vendor area of the airplane(s) they wanted more info
> about.
>
> In excecution, didn't quite work out this year....

Live and learn, I guess. Ain'cha lucky we're all giving you advice for next
year? :-)

Ron Wanttaja